I really, really, REALLY hate the blog Fedoras of OKCupid.
Furthermore, I hate the use of “fedora” or “Redditor” or “brony” as metonymy for “misogynist,” about half of what people say about Nice Guys ™, anyone who accuses misogynists of being virgins or not getting laid or of living in their mom’s basement, and the word “neckbeard.”
But let me talk about Fedoras of OKC.
Fedoras of OKC comes from a particular genre of Tumblr blogs where they take screenshots of people from OKCupid and make fun of them. Perhaps the most famous is the now-deleted Nice Guys of OKC, which chronicled people who claimed they were nice and then proclaimed that men should be the heads of their households and homosexuality is a sin. (Full disclosure: I used to read Nice Guys of OKC, but then I read Ally Fogg’s blog post about it and started feeling guilty. Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa.)
I don’t think it’s necessarily wrong to laugh at quotes from people being assholes on OKC. (It is, however, skeevy in the extreme to post their pictures, names, or other identifying details to accompany it.) Sometimes the most effective path is to shame and mock assholery, in order to discourage people from being assholes.
But the problem is that Fedoras of OKC mostly isn’t people being assholes! Sometimes it’s this guy:
[Long-haired slouchy guy in fedora and Led Zeppelin shirt. Captions: "I am often seen wearing a fedora." "I can make an eggplant parm that will render chicken absolutely useless. True story."]
This person is utterly inoffensive on every level, unless you count his belief that eggplant qualifies as a food. And yet he’s right up there next to this guy:
[Guy who is, in fact, in a fedora. Captions: "I am an unapologetic masculine man, not trying to fit in with the metro set or emulate the latest cool guy on MTV, I make it pretty simple here, I'm not selling more than what a woman who appreciates a real man could desire. I work hard, I sweat, I push heavy things, and keep moving overcoming obstacles and excuses where others may falter. I am the kind of guy you want to hug at the end of the day when you get home, to feel safe and happy that you got your arms around a big sturdy man." "I am strong and masculine with a friendly smile." Also he'd "take advantage of" a drunk person who wouldn't want casual sex while sober but who was flirting with him. Yeaaaaah.]
As if Eggplant Parm Dude and Casually Admits On A Dating Site To Being Willing To Commit Possible Sexual Assault Guy are basically the same thing, because they both like the same kind of hat.
Obviously, there are lots and lots and lots of Redditors, bronies, virgins, basement-dwellers, people who are poor at personal grooming, and (yes) men in fedoras who are misogynists. I have no problem with anyone criticizing the Men’s Rights Reddit, bronies who insist that My Little Pony couldn’t possibly be a show for little girls because it’s well-written, or virgins who blame their virginity on women chasing after alpha males.
Furthermore, there is endemic misogyny within the geek community (and next-door neighbor communities like skeptics, tech people, fandom, gamers, etc). If you doubt this, please go to Geek Feminism and start reading.
But to me, it seems like a lot of people are using misogyny as an excuse to criticize a type of guy they don’t like anyway. That they dislike virgins, and socially awkward people, and people with geeky interests, and were like “hey! This misogyny gives us an excuse to criticize men in this category we don’t like and feel like awesome social justice advocates! Go us!”
(Please note that, as ever, if this is not about you it is not about you. If you have no problem with virgins, socially awkward people, and people with geeky interests, and perhaps even fall into one or more of those categories yourself, then this is not about you.)
People in our culture already like making fun of virgins, socially awkward people, and adult men who watch little girls’ TV shows. You are not fighting the power by making fun of them. You are just doing the same thing everyone else is doing, except you’ve justified it so you get to feel nice about yourself.
There’s a pattern across our culture of letting people off the hook for abuse, rape, and misogyny as long as they’re conventionally attractive, or popular, or someone we like. I feel like concentrating on misogyny within unpopular groups to the exclusion of misogyny elsewhere risks reinforcing this pattern, and that’s not okay.
It makes it seem like misogynists are identifiable, classifiable, and the kind of guys you don’t like anyway. In fact, misogyny is fucking everywhere, including in guys you think are really cool. It’s important not to get caught up in window dressing and lose sight of the actual content.
Some people will probably respond to this “but privileged socially awkward geeky dudes are not actually marginalized within our society! They do not face the problems that people of color, or trans people, or queer people, or women do. Therefore it is okay to stereotype them and make websites where we take their pictures off dating sites and make fun of them.”
To which I say: “Congrats. You’re not making fun of a marginalized group. Would you like a cookie?”
[Sugar cookie that says "not oppressive, just a bully."]
As for an example of a guy who “hasn’t said anything racist or sexist,” how about this one:
http://fedorasofokc.tumblr.com/post/33875027956/im-a-bit-of-a-jack-of-all-trades-but-i-excel-in
The guy says zippo that could be construed as sexist or racist, and yet he’s considered one of the “best” I.e. most egregious.
Yes but there’s no direct insult there – unless you count the tag of ‘best’ which I think is a bit ambiguous… Of course some of the comments are horrible, a Tumblr like this would open someone up to that kind of abuse in a way that OK C would not (another reason why it’s not fair to use people’s stuff without their permission).
Sorry but I’m going to have to ponder on this more, I’m out.
I’d suggest looking more closely at the blog. It’s pretty clear to me what the blogger intends.
@Monkey – Where would you draw the line? I would draw it at things that are directly harmful to other people. Not believing in evolution would certainly be a dealbreaker for me, but I don’t see it as actively hateful/bullying/oppressive the way I see policing gender roles as actively hateful/bullying/oppressive. And I don’t think people’s opinions should be off-limits, if those opinions are hateful/bullying/oppressive. Wearing fedoras or listening to certain music are personal preferences that do not hurt others, and I agree with the general consensus that mocking someone for those preferences makes you oppressive and/or a bully.
As for your Puritan village comment, I think that it’s a problem of balancing open dialogue and creating a culture where hate speech and oppression are not tolerated. I don’t have the perfect answer to what that balance should be, but I disagree that the Internet As A Whole falls on the side of policing speech – see: Reddit or YouTube comments. And as to whether or not mocking works: I have no data here, so I’m kinda talking out of my ass, but I would say it’s less about changing the behaviors of the individuals being mocked and more about highlighting the things they say that are fucked up, but that are fairly normative and probably overlooked by many people. Whether it actually works or not, I have no idea.
I’m still kind of confused, and possibly slightly bothered, by your conceptualization of friendzone. Rejection sucks, a lot, and it hurts. But the vast majority of relationships (budding or otherwise) don’t work out. If you got a friend out of an ended relationship, I think that’s really fuckin’ cool, because good friends are not always easy to come by. You haven’t been “put in the friendzone,” you’ve had a relationship not work out (as most don’t) and had someone like you enough to want to be your friend.
As for the idea of “full friendship,” that just confuses me. I have plenty of good friends who I do not talk to about dating advice, because that’s just not the sort of thing we talk about, or because one of has has drawn a no-go boundary around that topic for one reason or another. I don’t think a “full” friendship should require every topic of conversation being on the table. It’s also possible that I just totally misunderstood what you were saying.
Personally, I think the tumblr goes over the line, as did the original NGOKC. If I meet someone who believes that the earth is bigger than the sun, I’ll skip contacting them, but I won’t shame them.
As for “full friendship,” a woman would not think twice about giving romantic advice to another friend. As well, I was hoping (perhaps unrealistically) that I could get some info on what I did wrong. But also, saying “rejection sucks” is cold comfort when, even among feminist circles, men are more likely to have to approach women.
What bothered me was that I was trying my hardest to just “be myself” and treat these women with respect while still doing some romantic gestures – gifts with no expectation of gifts back, etc.,- and somehow this came off as “giving off friend vibes.”
Honestly? I don’t get it.
I took a look at that fedoras site. I don’t really get what this fedora thing is – is it now a new “designated internet punching bag”? Is it one of these things we’re all “supposed” to hate, kind of like furries and hipsters? Is it like, the opposite of bacon but instead of food it’s a garment? (btw, I’m ambivalent about bacon. It’s ok, it’s not that great, it’s just a food ffs.)
But for the site itself, the main impression I got out of it is, whoever is running it is just trolling. Or like those kids say in the intertubes, “doing it for the lulz”. I mean, there’s nothing of substance there. The writing style, remarks the site admin makes towards people who criticize h/im/er, everything just gives the feeling like it’s some kind of coolkid straight from 4chan.
So the site author is just like all the other coolkids from the nether regions of internet: emotionally immature and considers putting down others for h/is/er own amusement the epitome of humour (right after memes, which are basically just an electric form of schoolyard catchphrases, things that become “funny” by virtue of so many people repeating them).
The need to shame and bully others is a telling sign of insecurity and lack of real self-esteem.
Also, just so that no one gets the wrong idea, I’m totally cool with furries and hipsters, or heck, why not even furry hipsters. Sorry for the double post.
“Personally, I think the tumblr goes over the line, as did the original NGOKC. If I meet someone who believes that the earth is bigger than the sun, I’ll skip contacting them, but I won’t shame them.”
I’m not sure what you are referring to when you say “the tumblr” and “the original NGOKC” – as far as I know there has only been one NGOKC, and if “the tumblr” refers to Fedoras of OKC, I agree with you (and have stated above) that there is pretty much nothing redeeming about it. As to whether or not NGOKC went too far – well, like I said above, there was plenty about it that I think was bad, or at least that made me uncomfortable. What I was specifically referring to was publicly juxtaposing these guys claims of being nice with their sexist and/or violent comments or answers. Which I don’t think is going to far, but I can see where you are coming from when you say you do.
“As for “full friendship,” a woman would not think twice about giving romantic advice to another friend.”
???? Are you referring to a specific woman, or women in general? If you are referring to a particular woman, there’s really nothing I can say about that, not knowing her. If you are referring to women in general, I don’t know that all (or nearly all) women have the same feelings about giving romantic advice to friends. I’m not sure that the sharing of romantic advice is really the best litmus test for whether or not a friendship is “full.” Also, at least for me personally, I can think of many situations where I could like someone a lot and want to be their friend – even a very close friend – and not feel comfortable giving them romantic advice if I knew they had feelings for me.
Fair enough re: men needing to predominantly do the approaching. It’s a fucked up and unfair dynamic.
I agree that the violent comments are bad, but I still feel icky about making it so public. If they say that on OkC, other OKCers can avoid them. I don’t see a purpose to highlighting it outside OKC.
But the original NGOKC (I say “original” because I think of Fedoras as a sequel/spinoff) also just plain mocked guys for (yes) wearing fedoras and having silly (but not particularly sexist) views.
I’m just talking from my own personal experience about the friend thing. It just sucked that two women felt like I was giving off “friend vibes.”
I agree, one of the problems the fedoras tumblr has is that it conflates serious douchiness with dorkiness. Picking on the latter is outright mean, and would cause many of the same bloggers to flip their lid if a male blogger was doing the same with womens’ profiles.
Unfortunately, Internet nerds spend way too much of their time, instead of learning from life experience that being on the receiving end of meanness is horrid and that such behavior should not be tolerated, instead finding people they themselves can look down on and pick on. “Acceptable targets”.